An international relations expert explains U.S.-Europe political split over Ukraine war : NPR

ROB SCHMITZ, HOST:

The war in Ukraine highlights the growing divisions between the United States and Europe. President Trump appears increasingly frustrated by his failure to end the conflict. Here’s what he had to say about some traditional allies during an interview with Politico earlier this week.

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: In most European countries, they are in decline. They are decomposing.

SCHMITZ: To get the European perspective on the state of transatlantic relations, we are now joined by Nathalie Tocci in Rome. She is Professor of Practice at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. Thank you for being with us, Nathalie.

NATHALIE TOCCI: Great to be with you.

SCHMITZ: So let’s start with Ukraine. We see reports that US envoy Steve Witkoff will meet with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and European leaders here, where I am, in Berlin this weekend. We have seen intense diplomatic activity in recent days. What do you think are the chances of an agreement?

TOCCI: Frankly, extremely weak, and extremely weak because there seems to be no intention on Moscow’s side to actually see this war end. I actually think that the continuation of this war has become essential to the survival of the Russian regime. And as far as the United States is concerned, there appears to be very little incentive to put any pressure on Russia. And on the Ukrainian side, although, of course, the United States has a lot of influence over Ukraine, it’s not as high as it used to be. And it’s basically…

SCHMITZ: That’s true.

TOCCI: …Because the United States no longer provides military support to Ukraine, certainly not as much as it used to. And so, basically, the Ukrainians mainly rely on the Europeans, and the Europeans continue to stand with Ukraine.

SCHMITZ: And meanwhile, President Trump hasn’t been shy about criticizing Europe. Last week, his administration released its national security strategy, and it marks a very different approach to Europe for the United States. I took some notes. According to President Trump, European leaders are, quote, “weak,” and the European Union, he says, was created to, quote, “screw the United States.” How do you view these statements?

TOCCI: Well, essentially, if you take not just the national security strategy, if you take the statements that Vice President Vance made at the Munich Security Conference, if you look at the actions of this second Trump administration, it actually paints a pretty coherent picture. And this vision is one that I would characterize as imperial collusion. There seems to be an interest in maintaining good relations with Moscow, to a certain extent, with Beijing as well, so in a sense, with great powers that consider themselves empires. And Europe is there, a little uncomfortable, because if it is united, it has a voice. If it remains disunited and fragmented, well, it will end up on the colonial menu. And I think making Europe part of that colonial menu seems to be part of the intention.

SCHMITZ: Yeah. I mean, another strong point of this Trump document is that he claims that Europe is facing what he calls, quote, “the erasure of civilization.” As you know from having lived in Italy, one of the main issues fueling the rise of nationalist parties in Europe is immigration. Why do you think the Trump administration is so interested in this issue on European soil?

TOCCI: Okay. So, of course, you know, one reading of this means that Trump has an idea – or rather, his administration has an idea about us, the white, Christian West. I mean, it’s a read. But I think, frankly, just scratching the surface, it’s obvious that – let’s take, for example, my country. My country is led by a far-right leader whom President Trump seems to like very much.

SCHMITZ: That’s true.

TOCCI: In fact, Italy has experienced over the last three years, under this government, an increase – a constant increase in migratory flows because the government knows that there is a labor shortage. There are other governments in Europe. Take the example of the Danish social democratic government, which has actually been much more restrictive on migration. However, this does not seem to be one of this administration’s favorite governments. So I think, frankly, that underlying this whole sort of cultural integration of a worldview is actually, I think, the deeper sense that by supporting far-right governments in Europe, which tend to be – well, actually, which are Eurosceptic, you get a weak, divided, fragmented and disintegrated EU, which is in the interest of a Trump administration that sees the European Union, as you were saying, quote, ” fuck the United States.” (call).

SCHMITZ: That’s Nathalie Tocci from Johns Hopkins University. Nathalie, thank you very much for being with us.

TOCCI: Thank you.

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