And at the end of the day, it turns out that MAGA was kind of right about that, right? It actually is an elite cover-up. This is about elite impunity. But the problem for MAGA is that the elites who are, you know, getting off on doing the cover-up are Donald Trump and his minions.
So it’s like—if they were just willing to be honest and kind of consistent about this and willing to criticize Donald Trump, they could say, We were right about this. You know, it was an elite cover-up. But they can’t quite get there, because that would require indicting Trump.
Hemmer: That’s exactly right. And that’s actually the reason why the people who are, kind of, having the most success in talking about Epstein and Trump are those who haven’t tied their entire political futures to Donald Trump.
And so it’s people like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes who can talk about this elite corruption because they have a bigger project. Their bigger project is a white nationalist ethnostate, and Donald Trump is useful for that—but when he’s gone, their project lives on. It’s the people who are tied to Donald Trump’s power who are having such a difficult time talking about this, and are going to continue to have a really difficult time talking about this.
I mean, I will say, I don’t think you have to “hand it to” QAnon or to Pizzagate. Those were wrong conspiracy theories, but there is a story of elite corruption and elite exploitation—the elite cover-up that is at the heart of the Epstein story—and that should be fodder for both left- and right-wing politics in the United States. And it’s interesting to watch the right kind of fumble the bag on it.
Sargent: Yeah, the bottom line is that they are not able to hold Trump accountable for anything. And so they themselves become participants in the failure of accountability toward elites.
Hemmer: And that’s part of one of the things that you’re hearing a little bit on the right. You hear it—I will say, Megyn Kelly and a couple of other people are talking about—”Well, we were told that these were children who were being abused, and actually it’s just, like, underage girls, and that that’s different.”
And that is putting them in, I think, a tricky position. And so I do think you are going to see more of that, though. I think there is going to be some “Epstein denialism” that begins to emerge, because there’s no other way, really, to defend the right-wing elites who are caught up in the scandal.
Sargent: So what happens now? Where does this go? There are two major dynamics that I can see. One is that Donald Trump won’t be on the scene forever—believe it or not—and MAGA will no longer have this kind of one central figure around which they organize everything: their emotional lives and their worldviews and all that. That’s one dynamic.
And the other is that the pressure for more revelations and accountability for the Epstein crimes—and the elites who are implicated in them—isn’t going to let up. Those two dynamics are, kind of, what are coming. What happens now?
Hemmer: It’s a great question. And I don’t have a crystal ball for this, but I do think that you have picked out the right dynamics. I mean, I think there is a tension growing in the system around impunity, and Donald Trump sits at the heart of that. He’s not outside of it.
We are seeing world leaders put on trial—both for their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, but also for trying to overthrow their governments. There are people being held accountable outside of the United States in the way that they’re not being held accountable within the United States.
And there is a real tension around the fact that elites are not being held accountable. And that could lead to a movement that crosses political lines and that calls for more accountability. I’m not bullish on that in the immediate future, but I do think it’s worth noting that there is a growing populist resentment that can be channeled in different ways.
It can be channeled toward authoritarianism and toward a further right-wing radicalization, but it can also be channeled toward reform movements. And I do think that as people are thinking about, “What do we make of all of this?” our energies could be fruitfully spent thinking about how do you reform this system so that impunity isn’t the “order of the day” in the United States?
Sargent: And clearly Donald Trump has to disappear from the scene before that can even start to happen, right?
Hemmer: Not just disappear from the scene, but he has to be held accountable. And that, I think, is going to be the heaviest lift in American politics and in the American judicial system. Because that’s the problem in the system right now. And if you can fix that, then you can start to make headway on other things.
Sargent: I guess the other alternative would be that people have to wait until he passes away, and then maybe something like what you’re talking about can begin to happen.
Hemmer: The door will open sometime, so we just need to be ready to walk through it when it does.
Sargent: Nicole Hemmer, this is fascinating—if unnerving—stuff. Thanks so much for coming on. Always great to talk to you.
Hemmer: Thanks so much for having me.
