Divide over fossil fuels phaseout can be bridged, Cop30 president says | Cop30

Oil-producing countries must recognize the rise of clean energy, and rich countries will need to provide more assurances on financing if the gap between nations negotiating at Cop30 is to be bridged, the summit president said.

André Corrêa do Lago, the senior Brazilian diplomat in charge of climate negotiations, said: “Developing countries see developed countries as countries that could be much more generous in helping them be more sustainable. They could offer more finance and technology.”

This does not necessarily imply an increase in the overall amount of money to be provided directly from rich countries’ coffers, set last year at $300bn (£230bn) a year by 2035. It could also come from better use of existing funding, Corrêa do Lago added.

“You don’t need more money. You don’t need public money from developed countries. You need to leverage more dollars with every dollar you have,” he said in an exclusive interview with the Guardian as the negotiations entered their crucial phase.

“They can not only offer more resources to banks, to multinational development banks; investing more public money in funds like the Green Climate Fund or the Global Environment Fund, but there are also a growing number of alternatives like debt-for-nature swaps and others. [instruments].”

Division over the “transition away from fossil fuels” has emerged as the biggest rift during the Cop30 negotiations, which are now entering their final days in Brazil. On Tuesday, more than 80 countries demanded a transition roadmap as a key outcome of the summit, in what some activists described as a “turning point.”

But they are likely to face strong opposition from oil-rich countries like Saudi Arabia and others that rely on fossil fuels. Decisions made at “party conference” meetings require consensus, so even a handful of states could derail the proposed road map.

“Not only [the divide] binary, but it is two extremes: one very favorable [to a phaseout] the other very unfavorable. There are not many countries that remain indifferent,” Corrêa do Lago said.

But countries could still come together, he added. “Like most of these negotiations, they are less binary than they seem,” he said, if countries could recognize their own internal contradictions and confront the global need for climate action.

Some oil-producing countries oppose the phase-out of fossil fuels, as do some consuming countries. “Some countries, because oil is a very important source of income, and other countries because they believe that they will still need to use coal for years to come, have shown very clearly that this proposal is not acceptable to them,” Corrêa do Lago said.

Oil-producing countries have also had to face hard truths. “They must decide for themselves how they interpret the transition [away from fossil fuels]” he said. “They already do it. There is a statistic that shows that the use of oil will inevitably decline in the coming years. [Electric vehicles are] significantly reducing the demand for oil, gasoline and diesel.

He urged all countries to examine their future in the context of the climate crisis. “All countries could engage in this exercise, which is to find their own path to the transition to net zero, which is what we are committed to,” he said.

Countries can overcome their internal contradictions and act on the climate in spite of themselves, according to Corrêa do Lago. Brazil embodies this: the country has recently become a major producer of oil and gas, but its president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, insisted several times, during Cop30 and the summit of world leaders in Belém which preceded it, on the need to “move away from dependence on fossil fuels”.

Countries should confront these opposing internal forces rather than trying to hide them, Corrêa do Lago urged. “This Cop takes place in a country which is both a new producer and exporter of oil and a champion of renewable energies.

“The country with the largest tropical forests in the world and the country with the largest meat producer in the world. Brazil is a microcosm of the world: we have many successes, and we still have great challenges. [with poverty] and many things to do to improve the lives of our population. We understand the challenges of wealth and the challenges of poverty. [Brazil] reminds us that every country in the world experiences contradictory circumstances.

Lula is expected to return to Belém on Wednesday to try to bring the countries in conflict together. Corrêa do Lago said this would be done by listening to the concerns of all countries. “Brazil does not want to conduct top-down negotiations – it wants to hear from countries what solutions they are proposing,” he said.

Corrêa do Lago is a pragmatist, a climate diplomat since 2002, who believes that the annual negotiations must evolve quickly to keep up with the speed at which global warming is altering the planet. Arguments over the precise wording of pledges and resolutions, which have already been repeated many times, can distract countries from the need for further action in the real world, he says.

“The sense of urgency is what pushed us to insist on implementation, because I think at this point it’s not relevant to be right. What’s relevant is really to move forward and make progress in implementation,” he said.

This could mean countries moving forward with “coalitions of those willing” to take immediate action, rather than waiting for consensus to be reached at a COP. Brazil has developed an “action agenda” on issues that do not need formal approval from the COP to move forward.